How three different generations met Sonny Umpad | EP 1 | VSCK Podcast #260405

Gregory Manalo (00:00):

This homeless looking man, he said, "Yo, I'm going to take you to go see the grandmaster."

Renato Alfonso (00:04):

There were just a lot of high-end people. They would come see him because he has something that not too many people had.

Jason Santucci (00:10):

And he goes, "Fine, go to the backyard, get one of those chickens and kill it for me and bring it back to me.

Gregory Manalo (00:15):

" Hello and welcome everyone to the VSCK podcast. My name is Gregory Manalo, and I'm here with my Kuyas, my older senior brothers here in the VSCK Arts. We have Renato Alfonso and Jason Santucci. And we're here just to talk about the life and art of Sony Umpod and everything that is VSCK. So welcome everyone. I think a good place to start is asking everyone how we first met Sonny and maybe why we wanted to continue studying with him. So Renato being first generation and also the Kuya of Kuyas, the oldest of all of us, but not necessarily old. More senior maybe.

Renato Alfonso (01:08):

Greg calls me Kuya Lolo. I call him Kuya pogi and he calls me Kuya Lolo.

Gregory Manalo (01:16):

Kuya being older brother and Lolo

Renato Alfonso (01:18):

Being- Grandfather. Yeah.

Gregory Manalo (01:20):

Grandpa. It just means double respect.

Gregory Manalo (01:24):

That's all that.

Renato Alfonso (01:25):

Yeah. Right. Okay, Greg.

Gregory Manalo (01:29):

Yeah. Back in the day, like when you

Renato Alfonso (01:32):

Were- Well, I mean, I basically am in the first generation in late 80s. That's where I first met Sonny. And then Jason came in the middle, then obviously you and the rest of the folks, Greg, which is the third generation. And in my generation, late 80s, I think one of the Sonny students was studying with him, who was also studying with Jesse Glover, the non-classical gung-fu portion who was in Seattle. And a lot of the students of Jesse's were all mostly bouncers, San Francisco bouncers. But this guy was also studying with Sonny. And he brought down Jesse to do a seminar at Wally Jay's place in Alameda.

(02:21):

And Sonny happened to stop by and to check it out. And they all got to meet Wally, Jesse, Sonny and his student. And then I came by, say hello to him, pay my respect to him. I knew who he was, of him rather. I didn't know what he does. Actually, I didn't know anything about the screamer at the time. I didn't know about that word. Didn't even have no inkling what it was. But he asked me to stop by and I said, "I would love to. " And I got to meet him and then just became more of a friend actually with him. At the time, I was a single parent, so I didn't really have a lot of time training, but I was around him in the evenings when my son would go to sleep, blah, blah, blah. And so that was my experience with Sonny.

(03:08):

I was around him about that time in the late 80s and moving forward. That was my stuff. There was a lot of students. He had a few students there that mostly Jesse's people. And well, he had quite a many different stuff, but yeah, I just kind of fitted in there.

Gregory Manalo (03:30):

And for you, Jason?

Jason Santucci (03:32):

For me, I met Sonny early mid '90s and most of the original guard had graduated. That was through some people. I was doing jiu-jitsu with at the time and I got brought by and it was a whole thing because there was no internet and texting and all that kind of stuff. And so I saw a tape that a training partner of mine had showed me in jujitsu and it was just kind of an overwhelming thing. I'd been doing martial arts a long time and saw how he was moving and it immediately gets your attention because it's just so unique and it just does not seem real. And so somebody else at Jujitsu then had to go by and say, "Hey, I've got somebody I want to bring by," and then came and got me and went and got interviewed by him, which was an interesting process in and of itself, but it was through other people in the community, some of the same people I think that Ren knew as well too at the time, because he was within that island.

(04:44):

He was a pretty well known guy and Alameda for those who don't know. And yeah, it was definitely my equivalent of going to the mountaintop kind of thing to go meet, because it wasn't just a straightforward, easy thing. And there was definitely judgment and you have to sit before this guy and it's for dramatic effect, a very dark room. And there's all these sorts and stuff around him and asking you questions and kind of trying to figure out who you are because not only was this an important and personal thing to him, but it was also something that was pretty dangerous. And not to argue about the whole ninja death touch stuff about things, but when you're training people how to use knives and stuff like that, it's dangerous regardless. I don't care what side of the martial arts spectrum you fall on. It's still something to take seriously.

(05:45):

And so there was definitely vetting involved and it was an interesting process for sure.

Gregory Manalo (05:55):

So what was his first time like? I mean, did you talk to him when you first saw him or did-

Jason Santucci (06:02):

So I get brought by by this guy who knew him from Professor Jay's as well too. And we go to his place in Alameda and as we realized talking earlier was that there's the red door and he cracks the door and looks out and the guy says a couple of things and he opens the door, but it's really dark inside. You go in and he sits down in the corner and there's all this smoke and dark, very theatrical, right? But honestly so, because this is an important thing to him too. And I'm walking into a world that I know nothing about and a culture I know nothing about martial arts, I know nothing about. I had heard of it before, but the tape that I saw was my first real intro to something that of those arts I found interesting. I saw a lot of basic stuff in the past that was like karate with sticks kind of,

(07:03):

And that didn't seem interesting or different to me. It was just like, "Oh, that's a linear thought process." And I'm not making fun, just it makes sense. And when I saw Sonny stuff, I was like, "I have no idea what he just did." And it scared me because I had been doing a lot of different stuff and I was like, "I'd have no idea what to do with this guy, not a clue." And so that was kind of my approach was like, just learn, just go there to learn. I wasn't looking to like, I don't want to be a master. I don't want none of that. I just wanted to go learn something that was so different and was so interesting at the time and sat down and talked with him. And the guy that brought me, he had told him to leave. So it's just me and him.

(07:44):

And he's sitting there again in the dark and asking me questions and they're the swords. And I hear the birds in the background at his old place, which were parakeets. But as we've discussed, now the joke that got me in was he had asked me, he's like, "Why do you want to do this and blah, blah, blah. And then if you had to, could you use this to defend yourself," meaning a knife. And I was like, "I don't know. Probably, yeah. It's not my main reason for being here, but sure." And he goes, "Fine, go to the backyard, get one of those chickens and kill it for me and bring it back to me.

(08:30):

" And just dead serious, right? And I went, "No." No, I'm not going to- I'm vegetarian. And again, it's parakeets, but what do I know? I'm just hearing birds and I have these crazy swords and this pretty scary dude sitting in front of me that I don't know anything about and telling me to go kill a chicken. And I said, no. And he was like, "Well, you said you could use it if you had to. " And I was like, "I don't think I've ever been that afraid of a chicken, man." And so he laughed and that was what made everything okay. And he was like, "Okay, show up tomorrow and we'll start then." Oh, and also the other thing I wanted to say is don't call me sir because that was my automatic on everything, yes or no, sir, all the time. And he was just like, "I'm sunny." And he tried to establish that very, very early on, which I thought was kind of cool, but I had a really hard time with it for a long time.

Gregory Manalo (09:32):

Right. Yeah. Man, that's a great story. I mean, after knowing him for so long and seeing people come in and out, you kind of understood, you had to get screened to get to see Sonny and to talk to him, let alone train with him. But you had to get the recommendation, you had to get the okay, you had to get the ... For whatever reason, whether if he was paranoid or being extra careful or because of a past experience, he was definitely, you had to get screened. And so it sounds like it's been like that since first gen, second gen and third gen. Yeah. My story is out there, me and Jay's story anyway. So yeah, the way I met Sonny, I was already in pursuing Filipino American culture, being around 16, 17, really trying to figure out who you are, what does it all mean and why should it make sense?

(10:27):

At the time I was working at a bagel place in Berkeley

(10:32):

Right there on Telegraph next to UC Berkeley. And so there's a lot of foot traffic, a lot of people. I was there with me and Jay. Jay was actually the manager of this bagel place that eventually shut down and we came to work and suddenly it was closed, but that's another story. So I was taking my break out front and I was wearing this big Filipino flag of a shirt because I was very Filipino proud and trying to search that. And this homeless looking man came up and I could tell like, "Oh, this guy's Filipino." And I could tell he's homeless and he's carrying his backpack and everything and he sees my shirt and he's like, "Oh, you're Filipino?" He was like, "Oh, I'm Filipino too." He was like, "You know Escrima?" He's like, "I teach it at the park. You should come through. I'll teach you for free." I was like, "Oh, okay.

(11:28):

Yeah, that sounds cool." And then he asked me for a dollar and I was like, "I have bagels I can give you. " And so gave him like a big bag of bagels and eventually met him out in the park. I asked Jay to come with me and see if he's interested and he did show up with me and first lesson was pretty awesome. He showed us some sticks and then he showed us some open hand and did some moral stuff, which was all cool and new to us and soaking it all up. Then we were with him for like several months, probably three or four months until he took us and he said, "Hey, I'm going to take you to go see the Grandmaster." And at this time, I'm like, I didn't realize there was a Grandmaster. And so he eventually takes us to Sonny's Place.

(12:21):

And I remember coming to the apartments, the old apartment on Brush Street. And so we knock on the door and same thing, Sonny cracks the door open, you could see the chain still attached and you just see half of his face like this. And then he's looking around, he's squinty and he's nodding, looking at Mario. And then they say a few words. He's like, "Oh, these are the guys that I'm betraying. They want to learn the moral." And then he's like, "Okay." And then he closes the door, undoes the chain, opens it up, and then all the smoke fucking comes out from his cigarette smoking. And sure enough, it was dark. And so you can tell him and Mario have a shorthand and he goes into the kitchen and they talk for a bit. And me and Jay are sitting on the couch and yes, just like Jason said, there's swords everywhere.

(13:18):

And there was a tape playing, I remember on the TV with the double stacked VCRs and then he comes back out and sits on the edge of the couch and is like, "So you guys want to learn moral?" And from there we ended up talking and we basically just continued training with Mario from there. It wasn't until a month or so later that Mario became missing in action. We couldn't find him. He started becoming inconsistent and we eventually went to Sonny because we were looking for Mario, but we also wanted to continue our training. And so we asked Sonny if it would be okay to train with him. And

(14:07):

He said yes. And he said just to come on Sundays, which I know was his day off. He told us to come on Sundays and just show up, just show up and do the work. And that's what we did up until he integrated us with the group as regulars on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And then yeah, it was all kind of history from there at that point, but it was a slow process and he just made us do footwork. I remember not throwing a punch or holding a weapon for the longest time and we were just doing footwork stuff. I guess that's because he was under the idea that we wanted to throw in the moral because that's what Mario brought us in for. But I just remember thinking, "Man, we haven't thrown a punch or swung a stick in months." But I didn't complain. I was just there and happy and just to be doing something.

(15:01):

So

(15:02):

That's kind of the short of it. But my intention was definitely like, "I want to learn about martial arts and I want to learn more about history." And I remember Sonny saying like, "I'll teach you, but if you're trying to learn about the history and all of that and the culture, you have to learn that somewhere else." Interesting. "We're learning about fighting and this is what we do here." And that's what made it serious because then I was like, "Okay, he's no nonsense." Also, once you watched him move, then you're like, "This dude's legit." I just remember thinking like, "I want to do that. " I'm sure once we have Jay on, he'll have his own perspective and stories to go along with how we first met him.

(15:50):

So briefly, it seems like, so we have the experience of first gen, which is like late 80s, right? And then Jason with mid to early 90s and then third gen with me and everyone else, late 90s up until he passed away. And so originally, I kind of looked at it as we all kind of intentionally came to him to learn something specific or we wanted to learn the art altogether. But that's not completely true because like with Renato, it was more about a friendship that started off first and then kind of secondhand was learning what he was working on too as far as his art and his craft. Is that fair to say?

Renato Alfonso (16:35):

Yeah. I mean, like who was back then? There was a core people that he had was training and obviously people going in and out and a lot of high end people were coming through. I mean, teachers. Well, those guys are from Europe by that time. I mean, that was like early 90s by then. And there was just a lot of high end people, skilled people, if you will. They would come see him because he has something that not too many people had. His system, if you will, was one of accuracies, all kinds of stuff that people didn't have because a lot of the arts, martial arts back then, were stick based. And then if you were a higher level or the highest level, you were given a knife edge where Sonny was the opposite, which is everything he did was knife base. All the angles, all the strikes, all the hits were knife base in my eyes, right?

(17:42):

But he had the accuracy portion, the agility portion, and not to me, nobody could touch him, right? But back then, like I said, he had a curriculum already by then that he was trying to get out of, right? And I remember having a conversation about you guys, you two, you and Jasper in particular, that he was really, really happy with because he wanted to pass on the moral, the footwork stuff and not too many people can flow with him, I mean, can follow him, right? And because they didn't have the background or the ... He couldn't teach it because nobody could do what he wanted to see. So he was really happy to watch you. Starting you guys from the foundation portion was his biggest, that made him happy because now he could translate, give it to you guys, because he couldn't do it with other people.

(18:49):

That includes me, by the way. There were certain things that he was looking for, but you guys were supple. You guys were young, he could mold you guys, and I think he was happiest there to see you guys. And I had that conversation with him, and so I'm glad that you guys are doing what you guys are doing now.

Gregory Manalo (19:11):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as a third gen person and someone who came into it with a different kind of intention and perspective, I'm always interested in learning, what were the early years like? Because you mentioned that, yes, Sonny's stuff, his system and his material is blade based, but large portion of his curriculum, at least the one that he rendered at that time was stick based and then there was knives. I'm curious about what your training was like since it wasn't necessarily the entry point of student and teacher, but more of like a friendship. Was it kind of a casual thing or did you have an intentional set time to be like,

Renato Alfonso (19:49):

"Can you show

Gregory Manalo (19:49):

Me this to that? "

Renato Alfonso (19:51):

No, I didn't have that kind of mindset. He just basically gave it to me as he was sharing it with other people. We would come to the house, he started me off with a logo. I didn't do the curriculum. He showed it to me. He showed me the tapes. In fact, I couldn't understand the taste because somebody in that tape was freaking talking while I was looking at the tape. And I won't mention any names, but Jason didn't stop talking while I was watching. But I mean, really impressive stuff, right? But he wanted to show me the logo because he felt that he could share that with me. So we did a lot of Largo stuff. Then he obviously does what he did to most of us, which is chase you around with too nice all over the room and this is your baptism. And we've all experienced that, right?

(20:48):

And just to trigger your footwork, your agility and see where you're at and what you could add and all that stuff. But I didn't go through the curriculum. I know of it. I've done a little bit of it and more so now that I'm going through it because other people are interested in it, right?

(21:08):

So there's two mindsets there where do you ... I don't want to get off talk, but do you follow what he went through to get to what it is that you want or do you go through the flow based kind of stuff to get what ... So there's two different times. A lot of people feel that to get to what he was doing, you have to go through the steps that he took, right, which is all the curriculum stuff, right?

Gregory Manalo (21:35):

Yeah.

Renato Alfonso (21:36):

And then there's the latter part, the third generation where he believes he can get you there out of flow based pendulum and stuff. And then, I don't know, Jason went through a different set of information. I think Jason was talking about transitional stuff. Is that right, Jason?

Jason Santucci (21:54):

Yeah. Yeah. There was ... I think second generation, I got lucky personally because the time that I was there, it kind of allowed more of a loose environment to where I had previously done a bunch of different martial arts or whatever. I was currently working a door of somewhere and most of Sonny's previous students of first gen had all graduated and were not around quite a bit. And in fact, he didn't really have a lot of regular people. There was one or two, but nothing consistent over a period of years. And he'd have guys stop in, but it wasn't like a set ... It definitely wasn't like how you guys had in the third gen where there was set classes and times and all that. And so I could literally come from work one day and show up on a cane or show up with a cast on or something.

(22:54):

He'd be like, "Uh-oh." And he was like, "What happened?" And I'd explain it and he's like, "Well, let's see what we can do with that. " And so we would literally, we'd use the room, we'd use his kitchen as a bar and like, "Okay, you're here. Get here before I do this, do this. " He was so ahead of his time in so many ways. The way this whole reality-based combat stuff, all that kind of stuff and preemptive striking, all of these things now that are common in the lexicon were not necessarily defined by Sonny. He was not specific about it because he grew up with it. So he knew what it was. And so he would just explain it to me in a more basic way probably from somebody that maybe wouldn't have seen value in it if I hadn't said, "Well, hey, well, this is a situation that happened.

(23:48):

I had this many people and this is going on. " And he would just analyze and he'd be able to react. Where now that's the big thing in self-defense is all of this understanding context and psychology and using the environment, all that kind of stuff. And he was doing that then, and a lot of it was just off the cuff. And so to answer your question, Ren, yeah, I did do basics. When we first started, I started, believe it or not, on the low line pendulum with the moral and he then had me run through a bunch of other stuff like Serrata and Belintowic and other things, just not to learn it, learn it, but to just like, this is kind of the world that I come from of the Philippine martial arts and this is what these guys do, this is what these guys do.

(24:49):

And gave me that basis, but a lot of our training was just based off, I'd come and be like, "Hey man, or I'm doing this in judo or jiu-jitsu, what do you think? " And he'd be like, "Oh, this and this. " And I can't even tell you or express if you look at a lot of his transitional switching, some of the handwork that he does, grabbing onto a ghee and hand fighting, and he would have different lever points than I've seen with other people, and you could integrate that to that stuff and use them. And so yeah, that was huge and different, and it was super unique. And I think that what I received as a whole was probably far more chaotic and just catches, catch can.

(25:39):

And there's stuff that I know how to do that I couldn't explain because it wasn't really taught. He'd throw me in the deep end, like older guys would come back that I didn't really know, and they wanted to work on something. And so he'd be just like, "Just go work out with them and then do it. " And he would be like, "That was pretty good, but you got to remember this, this, this, and do this part instead." And I'd be like, "What are you talking about? " He's like, "Oh no, this and this and this. " And I'm like, "We never did that, dude." And he was like, "Oh, then you did really good.That's great, but we'll go work on that now." So that was definitely different than I've ever really trained. But the cool thing about Sonny and the same thing like Professor Jay, and this is about Sonny, but those guys were pretty close and had a lot of respect for each other.

(26:40):

Professor Jay had a lot of the same stuff where you could bring things in and it would fascinate him

(26:46):

And he would be like, "Oh wait, wait, what is this? " And then I'm like, you're showing him something and I'm nobody, right? I'm just some idiot. And I saw something or I watched some, I saw some catch wrestling something and be like, "Oh yeah, these leg bars, a knee bar back in 91 and show him." And he's like, "Well, okay, well then what do you do? " And I was like, "Did you do the knee bar?" This is the entry, is the cool part. But then he's like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "Small circle jujitsu push and pull." And he'd be like, "Oh yeah, the thing you invented." And he's like, "Oh yeah, yay." And they both had the kind of the same thing where they would take something and they'd just be a blank slate and learn it so well. And both of them were very, very similar that way.

(27:37):

But the one thing I wanted to say to you, and then I will be quiet, is I think Mario was very specific the same way that the guy brought me had very specific positive things to say about me to get Sonny to teach. I believe that Mario was doing the same thing with you guys about the moral because of moral being the hardest thing, in my opinion, the hardest and relatively the most esoteric in a lot of ways and probably for somebody looking for the stuff that I'm looking for or was looking for would be like, "That doesn't make sense to me for me to be doing this. " But to have him come in and say, "That's what these guys want to learn," that was his core of what he wanted to do. And so I think that was Mario pointing. And also too, you guys were young.

(28:22):

And I remember when you guys came in and Sonny was like, "Eh, we're kind of young at first." And it was just because of your age, if nothing else. And so he's like, "I don't know. " But I think that whole moral angle definitely was to kind of anchor you guys there because showing up to learn that meant a huge amount to him. And so I think that was probably why that happened.

Gregory Manalo (28:49):

Yeah. Yeah. Hindsight, I could definitely see Mario kind of anchoring that, but also just to show Sonny like, "Yo, I did good."

Jason Santucci (29:00):

I

Gregory Manalo (29:01):

Brought two guys and they're good guys and now they want to learn something that's connected to you. So I think that was that too, kind of do good for Sonny. But yeah, it's interesting to hear everyone's perspective and their entry points into meeting Sonny and the way he taught is very unconventional or at least initially it was trying to be. And then later on saying there's more to it and trying to find a different way. And so an analogy that I kind of explain it to people is that I also act on the side, I don't know if anyone knows this, but I also do theater. I haven't done it in a while, but I remember an acting teacher saying, "It doesn't matter how you get there, just get there." And this was on the topic of, well, you have Stanisfilovsky, you have method, you have this, you have that, you have different methods to get to the same place.

(29:55):

And to me, and when he said, "Just get there," I was like, "Okay, well, you You know, there's several ways. So to me, martial arts is similar in that we're all trying to get to the same place, which is fighting, learning how to fight, learning how to defend ourselves and drilling that skill to be autonomous. And so similarly, I think that's what his approach was like, we're all trying to get to this place, but there's different ways to get there. And Sonny's way was definitely the most unique I've ever seen.

(30:29):

It was innovative in a lot of ways, and it was definitely his own way. And I remember him saying that too. I was like, "I'm not showing you what to do. I'm showing you how I do it. " And there is a point of distinction. So in that sense, all the snow on the mountain eventually finds its way to the ocean. It's just a different path in how you get there. And so it's very interesting to hear how Sonny had been a part of each of your lives and taught you each of the material in a different way. And so I think that's very valuable for people to hear because it's very unconventional, very garage style in that sense. But it was very forward and progressive looking. And it was a living art in that sense while he was still living because it kept evolving, I think.

Jason Santucci (31:13):

Every day.

Gregory Manalo (31:15):

It really depended on who showed up and how he wanted to approach it. And so yeah, I don't know if there's a question out of that, but I think it's just great to have a perspective on Sonny and getting to know Sonny more through his students and through his other generations. And if I could add to that, I think hearing all of the evolution from the rendering of a curriculum, then later being abandoned, I don't know if that's the right word to

Jason Santucci (31:49):

Use,

Gregory Manalo (31:49):

But eventually transforming or at least saying maybe reworking the material through the generations and eventually coming back to some sort of semblance of organization through flow training, which is largely based on third generation pendulum flow training, which is what I share with other people and teach in classes. It is interesting. And so hopefully that's helpful for people. Do you guys have any more to add to that as far as your training with him and perspective?

Renato Alfonso (32:27):

Well, I mean, just the level of people that would come through. One of my fondest moments to remember was him and Wally Jay talking, exchanging. Well, they both talk softly,

(32:48):

And they're all almost whispering to each other, but just having the two of them sit there. I remember Jesse as well, and Sonny was showing him ... Jesse was telling him, "You should come with me to Europe." He said, "No, no, Jesse, I wouldn't know what to do, blah, blah. And well, just show them how you're showing me right now." And gave him the courage to go out, step outside. And Sonny was fish out of water, out of that house, that apartment. And it was really uncomfortable to him to be out. And so he got to Europe with a little help and he blew up there and therefore all the European people would come here, Pierre being one of them, quite a few people from that end and would want to train with him. But just watching high end people, like I said, teachers that were there, they're looking at Sonny because he has something that not too many people have, whatever it is that they're looking at from their eyes.

(33:54):

But just to have that kind of influence is something that's already said, right, that people would come to you for that. So that's all I really want to add, just love watching him with other higher people, but they all respected him. So anyways, Jason, did you want to add anything to that?

Jason Santucci (34:21):

Just to kind of back you up on that, is watching people that knew enough to know what they were seeing, that was pretty cool because somebody that's been around long enough that's probably at a high level themself and watched them have that reaction of like, "Oh,

(34:44):

I didn't know this was a problem I had to worry about or what I didn't know that this was possible or whatever else." But also too, and maybe this is for next time or whatever, but not just, as you said, the living art part was so true because I know my generation was kind of chaotic and it was like there was tons and tons of experimentation, but I don't think he ever stops doing that maybe to a certain ... He had a framework maybe by that point where he had guardrails, but there was still in my ... Because I'd come by and watch you guys. I'd just go sit in the corner and he would still ... Oh, you could see him like, "Oh, he's having a problem with this or they're not doing this exact, so what do I got to do? " And then he would try to explain it differently or he'd show something differently and then if not ... And I went through this too where I'd show up in the next day and there'd be some new training tool that he stayed up and made because he wanted to solve the problem, right?

(35:47):

He wanted to solve that problem. And so you would show up in a day and this guy sat up the whole night making something, coming up with something and then making it to help you learn just one thing, right? Just one thing. And I don't see that happening.

Renato Alfonso (36:10):

I think just to add, Jason, the two biggest things that I would, if you were to ask me what I would like to share about Sonny, besides his martial arts prowess portion of it was his ability to problem solve and make tools, his craftsmanship through his arts, all the stuff that he make by hand, those two. I mean, and if you ever see him on the dance floor, all that stuff and a musician, all that stuff correlated to what he was doing in the art, right? That kind of technicality, that kind of passion, that kind of integration of stuff, that kind of connecting with the other person as you flow, they're all part of the same lineage or connection.

Jason Santucci (37:02):

And

Renato Alfonso (37:04):

If there's anything I would like for people to see more was that part of it, the toys that he made, I call them toys, but problem solving things, the frustrator, the knife throwing ... I mean, everything that he makes, right? That dummy that was ... I know who has it now, but that was like a touchstone for all of us. We see that. It brings back all these memories of us trying it on that wooden dummy, for example, with the four legs. But anyways, it's just been fun to watch. But anyways, I'd like for us to share some of that stuff because that's what made him really accessible to us, to me.

Jason Santucci (37:49):

And the hundreds of knives, man. The hundreds of hundreds of knives, and watching him go through the process of making them.

Renato Alfonso (37:56):

Yeah. Yeah, he can sit there for hours just on one knife. He just looks so peaceful just sitting there, carving, shaping, taking trinkets here, and laying it there. It's just what a wonderful thing to have, right? To have that kind of level of peace and quiet while you're doing your art, right? So anyways, didn't want to get emotional or anything like that, but ...

Gregory Manalo (38:25):

Not on the first episode. Shit.

Renato Alfonso (38:26):

Not on the first ... Let's get going first.

Jason Santucci (38:30):

Warm

(38:32):

Me up, man. One quick thing, and kind of very unique to him too, is at the time, and having been there for a while and working the door, and he was like, "Come in dressed as you go to work." And okay. And so I did, and he's just like, "Okay, do you have anything?" And I think we carried a radio and we put it in our jacket. And sometimes some places, I had a mag light. So we trained a lot with mag lights, but the one thing he was like, "Well, what if you can't, because there are places you couldn't visibly have anything on you at all. " And he was like, "We still need something." And like, "Sure." And so he looked at my ... I think it was the dynamite pocket on the Carhartt or whatever, the long thin one. And so we measured it.

(39:19):

And then the next time I came back and he made me a ... I think it was the first thing he made me, was a blackjack basically, but it was a lug nut at the end. It was filled with lead with a wire, like a spring underneath it attached to it, and then overlaid with hose, and then shrink tube over the whole thing. So it was all black. And even had a little black end cap that he put on before your shrink trap, so it was all black. I still have it somewhere, but yeah, it was this little sap that was about this big that just had the lug nut with lead in the end. And then we trained with that a lot too, because it was so short, it's that long, right? And-

Gregory Manalo (40:06):

That's so cool.

Jason Santucci (40:07):

Yeah. And I think in so many ways it's such an expression of what he would do for folks and how he would approach things. And speaking of, I think you said Taylor made at some point or off the shelf, and that's definitely Taylormade training.

Gregory Manalo (40:25):

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Man, I love it. I love it. And there's just so much more to talk about. I mean, what's the saying is necessity of breeds invention or something like that, innovation or something. It's so much like that, but it sounds like Sonny was really a problem solver and he was really relished in the idea of like, "How do I solve this problem?" And I think that translated into his fighting and his martial art. But also, I think all true artists and creatives,

(40:56):

That one silo of their discipline or craft isn't the only isolated thing. They do other things that help inform the other thing, just like dance informs his movement and craft informs the martial art. And so I think everything is kind of just all integrated in that sense when you're creative like that and who's so innovative. And so much to talk about. So much to talk about. Yeah. And in that sense, he was a very tailor made kind of person and everyone came into him for different specific fighting arts reasons. And so great. I think that's a good place to stop if you guys don't have any other kinds of thoughts you'd like to share, closing thoughts.

Renato Alfonso (41:39):

No, I think that's a good place to stop and whatever direction we take in terms of sharing Sonny, I would love to be part of. And to this day, he influences all of us to this day. Oh yeah. For sure. And that's enough said about what he's left behind, right? So I appreciate that about us. And I'm glad that you gave us the opportunity to talk about it, Greg. I appreciate you. Appreciate you sharing. I'm happy to be here. But thank you. We look forward to the next one.

Gregory Manalo (42:17):

Cool. Well, thank you everyone for joining us. Stick around for more episodes, look out for more episodes. And until then, if you have any questions or anything you'd like to learn more about Sonny and VSEK or any of us individually, drop it in the comments or send us a message. And we'll see you next time. Bye everybody.

Jason Santucci (42:37):

Thanks folks. All right.