From grouped sequences to random flow. The evolution of Sonny Umpad's VSCK. | EP 2 | #260412

Gregory (00:00:00):

He had to say this maybe less than a handful of times to us. Make no mistake. We're learning how to hurt people.

Jason (00:00:05):

Distractions on the draw flicking things in people's faces. You flick the cigarette, draw the knife.

Renato (00:00:10):

And this is Sonny question. Can you pull the trigger? Can you take somebody out? Can you?

Gregory (00:00:15):

Hey everyone. Welcome back to the VSCK podcast. My name is Gregory Manalo. We're here with Renato Alfonso and Jason Santucci. And we're here to celebrate the life and art of Sonny Umpad. And today we're hopefully going to try to cover the topic of VSCK itself and the art and what Sonny hoped to put out there in the world. And the benefit is that we have first gen with Renato, second gen with Jason, and then third gen with me. And so I think the topic is really VSCK and its evolution from first gen to third gen. And I think maybe a good place to start is really just describing what the differences are and then maybe we can go from there. So yeah, take it away. My elders.

Jason (00:01:09):

That'd be you.

Renato (00:01:14):

Intent wise-

Gregory (00:01:16):

Well, what was it? What did it look like actually initially? Because from my perspective and looking at old tapes and material and the curriculum, to me it was like corto and short stick based and some knives, but beyond that, I don't really know.

Renato (00:01:32):

Yeah. I think by the time I got there, he was transitioning more to the largo portion of it. And because all the other stuff had already been built into his curriculum. He's moving away from that with all the different people coming into play. I think the time that I got there, the inside role wasn't in the picture yet. Wing Chun people were coming in and that kind of influences stuff going forward. So he was transitioning. He's always moving. He's always transitioning, picking up this, picking up that. And he's one of those people that can look at something and reproduce it because of his prowess, right? I can't think of the word, right? But he could look at somebody doing something and go, "Oh, I get that. " And then he could probably sometimes do it better than the guy that was doing it.

Gregory (00:02:24):

Right.

Renato (00:02:25):

Just because of his ability. So he was that gifted that way. And he can flow with somebody and pretty much reproduce what the other person's doing. And his eyes were really good because he can ... You know how the old way was, you send your fighter out and they do battles that he's watching what the guy's weaknesses are. So that's how it went. Actually, that's one of the ... He was the fighter in the Alameda one. He was their fighter. Sonny was the guy that they send out to go dual with the people, the other schools.

Gregory (00:03:04):

Wait, what do you mean? So he would go fight these other schools or he would fight random thugs?

Renato (00:03:10):

No. Well, people that would come in and challenge- Oh,

Gregory (00:03:13):

I see. He was like the sergeant at arms of sorts.

Renato (00:03:16):

He was the one that sent out. I think that's how he lost his front teeth.

Gregory (00:03:21):

Really?

Renato (00:03:22):

Yeah. I think that's what I understood as well.

Gregory (00:03:27):

I thought that was in the Philippines. He was here.

Renato (00:03:31):

Well, this is what we got to ask the other guys. But this is the way I understood, right? I see. I might've been in the Philippines, but the fact is that's how ... Sonny was the guy that they sent out to figure out what the other guys can and cannot do. So he was there, sergeant at arms if you will.

Gregory (00:03:50):

Got it.

Renato (00:03:51):

So anyway, so that was a nice thing to remember, but that's how he got good. In fact, a lot of the old masters were all fighters on the street. They had to be. They had to try him out and stuff. So anyway, so that was ... How did I get there?

Gregory (00:04:11):

Well, right. In your perspective ...

Renato (00:04:15):

Yeah. So we were just talking about the curriculum.

Gregory (00:04:20):

Right. Well, you were talking about- Yeah.

Renato (00:04:22):

Right? And a lot of his art was trying to figure out what works and doesn't work. That's really what I was trying to get to. He learned from something. And I think that's when he started hitting up more. And this is my opinion, by the way,

Gregory (00:04:37):

Because

Renato (00:04:38):

Everybody kind of worked from the top and then his stuff from tomorrow would start coming up, like hitting up. And this is my belief, because that's what he was showing me at the time.

Gregory (00:04:48):

Okay.

Renato (00:04:51):

And so that was my limited stuff. I was in and out of people. By that time, Jason's ... He was also very dark in those days.

Gregory (00:05:00):

Well, okay. So you're saying that at least optically, or at least from what I know, is that early stuff was in the curriculum that was mostly quarto and knife based. But when you were there, most of that curriculum was getting phased out and you started entering a larga mano phase and upward striking kind of phase.

Renato (00:05:24):

This is my experience with them. I mean, he might have been doing ... Like Jason was saying, each student had a direction, their own journey. And Sonny would just, as everybody calls it, he's just adding it up. He's just typing off what they can do, personality wise, also direction. But he was always not ... He was also, by that time, he was against all the dark stuff by that. He was already ... Because he's been there, done that. He was kind of done with that. So he was on his way to looking for a way to ... You guys see that? I went like that.

Gregory (00:06:04):

Yep. Yeah. Like a river. Like

Jason (00:06:06):

A river.

Gregory (00:06:08):

That's the flow based system. That be the new symbol right there.

Renato (00:06:14):

He was transitioning to a softer part of it. But he was very dark. With Jason as well, it was a lot of stuff. He was going through his ... Leaving his family, this horse, family, and he gave up his family for his art. This is the hardest thing for anybody to do. He gave up his family for his art. And I think there was a story where he was playing around, I think it was a balisong also, but anyways, playing with it, a knife flew. I don't know if it was a balisong, but it was a knife. And I think I got to ask Jackie if that happened. Did you hear that, Jason?

Jason (00:07:01):

Yeah.

Renato (00:07:02):

And it hit Jackie. I think it was a Jackie that got hit with a knife or got hurt. And that's when he took out all his weapons from the wall and did his stuff. Do you remember that, Jason?

Jason (00:07:16):

Yeah. No, I remember. I think Jackie told us that at, I think a barbecue at your house. Yeah,

Gregory (00:07:24):

I vaguely remember the story. Yeah.

Jason (00:07:26):

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Renato (00:07:28):

And there was a point where he had to decide family stuff. And anyway, so that's not an easy call to look at your art and your family. And I think Jackie and them were still in the teens that were growing up, Brian and stuff. So yeah, I thought that was always a hard call to make and sacrifice your family for your art. I mean, that's the way I looked

Gregory (00:07:56):

At it, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, to be that good, you have to be almost obsessive to want to be thinking about it, live it constantly. I mean, only the best really are kind of like that where they're so obsessive to excel.

Renato (00:08:10):

I don't know. It was so much ... We had a common friend, Skip Elsworth. He's gone now in the Philippines. And Skip Elsworth was one of the eight with Bruce Lee students. Jesse Glover, Skip was there. There was eight of them, but Skip Elsworth and I became friends and he lived in the Philippines. And he wrote to me one time, Sonny's really lucky that he lived the life that he wanted to live, right? And nobody can say that, that I lived the life that I wanted to live. So in a lot of ways, Sonny was very lucky and Skip understood that. Sometimes we live a life because we have responsibilities just that, but he actually sacrificed up to live the life that he wanted. So from our point of view, from Skip's point of view, he lived a life exactly the way he wanted to do it, which is doing his art, doing his music, his craftsmanship and all that stuff.

(00:09:17):

So anyways, I got ...

Gregory (00:09:19):

Yeah, sidetracked. Yeah. No, what I think is interesting is that how you frame your relationship with Sonny, not necessarily as a student, but as a friend, but sure enough, you were a student.

Renato (00:09:32):

I am. I still am. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm given the opportunity to share service, ask me to share, and I'm learning a lot of things that I did not see back when Sonny was sharing that with me, of course. And things that I wasn't mature enough to see in terms of either application, especially with application because all you see was Sonny doing stuff and you try to do the broad movement of it. But in terms of application, a lot of the applications were sort of taken away. I think that's what Jason was alluding to. You have all these movements up coming in, but in terms of application, that kind of was put aside for different times, right?

Gregory (00:10:21):

Gotcha.

Renato (00:10:22):

Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Gregory (00:10:23):

No, no, no, sorry, sorry. Well, so this wasn't flow based yet, right? This was more so just technique, kind of like, this is, I'll show you this and this is how you respond to that. Or how would you describe what he showed you?

Renato (00:10:35):

Well, I think he was leading into that because at the time he just came out with the frustrator.

Gregory (00:10:42):

Right. Yes.

Renato (00:10:43):

Obviously, that brought something a lot back to you, Greg, right? That became like, this is a huge connection for all of us.

Gregory (00:10:51):

For sure.

Renato (00:10:52):

Yeah. I mean, so that just frustrater came out. And my interest in the frustrator was how we freaking built it. The craftsmanship that allowed you to come up with a spindle, a rubber band that holds it going up and down, a weight on the bottom that swings it, that you kick that and all these things are moving, right? That's genius to me. That's the toy..... And so that was the beginning. So he was coming out of those things in terms of random stuff. This is the random stuff that comes in. He was already going into that. That was the end of my time. So I went like that again. But he had all the other applications, and then that's where Jason comes in.

Gregory (00:11:38):

Interesting. Okay.

Renato (00:11:39):

Had different things that was happening, needs. His needs were different in terms of applications and stuff. So to answer your question, yes, it was curriculum based, but I think he already started going into the flow stuff because all the toys that he was coming in was trying to get into some kind of randomness.

Gregory (00:11:59):

Yeah. You bring up a good point about randomness and flow and how they're both synonymous with each other and not necessarily the divergent or abandonment of the first gen curriculum, but it was more evolution in that he was just evolving martial artists basically. But there's also some talk from what I'm gathering from the both of you of like this idea of dark side and that kind of the dark element of it. I mean, let's just be honest, this is learning how to hurt people. It's the study of hurting people, but how do you go about it is all the difference. And so yeah, Renato , you were mentioning you were kind of on and off there, but you were certainly studying with him and he showed you what he wanted to show you. But with Jason, Jason was there damn near every day. And Jason was there for a specific thing.

(00:12:55):

And of course, we were all friends with Sonny and it's fair to say that you were friends with him too, but you were under there with a very formal way of saying, "I'm the student. I want to learn something specific." And you didn't necessarily say, "I want to learn all of it. I want to learn other curriculum. I have a specific need because I'm a doorman and other things that I might not be privy to and you needed to learn specific things like we talked about in the previous episode." Could you explain or describe the stuff that you guys were learning and perhaps the evolution from first gen, if you have any insight in that?

Jason (00:13:28):

Yeah. I think from what I saw, and always correct me if y'all don't agree, but going from first, second, third, what I saw was him kind of completing his, what you want to call an orchestra or whatever was, you guys were kind of the final, you were the final performance kind of thing and what he wanted to show to the world and have his name attached to it. And in my opinion, it was a much lighter version of what we went through. And I think there was a lot of reasons for that. I think I know it had experience in the past with people that he'd known that had done some not so great things, and it really affected him and he felt responsible and he couldn't stop teaching. I don't think he ever could stop teaching physically. He had to do that. He had so much stuff he had to get out of his head.

(00:14:34):

But I do believe that I showed up at the point where he was transitioning to teaching people how to teach themselves in a way of like-

Gregory (00:14:47):

That makes sense.

Jason (00:14:48):

The flow, all that kind of stuff where, I don't know if this is going to be too esoteric for some people, but what I would call an 80% lower, if that makes sense to anybody. So you can get a gun that's 80% of what it's supposed to be, and then you have to machine the rest of it to make it something that's functional. Now, if you're already a machinist, it's not going to be that hard, but if you're not, you have a whole bunch of work that you have to commit to understanding how to make that thing worthwhile. And that was his passive vetting because the people that wanted that, that didn't come up with it, that weren't part of that mentality or part whatever that is beforehand, you would have to work very, very hard to get there and you would have to do it on your own.

Gregory (00:15:37):

Interesting. Okay.

Jason (00:15:39):

So when I came in, I think he was still, he was very clear that he wanted a different direction and he- He was explicit

Gregory (00:15:52):

With that.

Jason (00:15:53):

Yeah. Yeah. He was really pretty ... Yes, definitely

(00:15:59):

Not in so many words, but I can do this better. And I think he even did a ... Oh man, he did an article once, one of the few where he talked to somebody that got published in some obscure thing? Yes. Where he said the difference between my old style of teaching a new style of teaching, I can get people to where I want them. I'm going to say something obscure, like three years sooner than I could with my old style of teaching. So there was that aspect of it as well. But I also believe that he specifically went into and wanted to put to the world something that was a dueling art. And while ultimately it's a sword fight and whatever else or a knife fight or whatever else, a dual is very different than assault a dual is very different than defense. A dual is very different than a lot of things.

(00:16:53):

You can take those elements and work real hard and implement that and put that into, but you have to do it.

Gregory (00:17:00):

Right.

Jason (00:17:00):

Take the 20%.

(00:17:02):

You have to take that and teach yourself that part. And what I think he did with me mostly was he gave me 80% of the other stuff and then I think he was waiting for me to stop doing homework in a lot of ways so he could be like, well, if you don't do this, but man, I did my homework. I went out there and I found people that were willing to do dumb stuff and like, "Hey, let's put these on and let's see what happens." And I'd bring it back and I'd show them and be like, "Okay, man." Yeah, let's keep going. Go to the next thing. And part of the funny stuff or the popular training now, and you see all these guys on the bob dummies and stuff, there weren't any bob dummies. And this is totally taking a page from him because also part of it was watching him make stuff and then being part of that.

(00:18:03):

And a lot of that came out of because I had to learn to stop saying, "Hey, that's cool because you just give it to me. " And I'd feel guilty about it, but then I also couldn't return it because I knew that would be insulting. Insulting too. And so after the third or fourth time, instead of saying, "Hey, that's cool," I'd have to go,

(00:18:20):

"That's really neat how you did this. Can you show me how to do it? " And the fact that I got excited about working on knives or working on all that kind of stuff, that was another aspect of our relationship because if I'd show up at one in the afternoon and stayed till I had to go to work at eight or nine at night, two of those hours is sitting at his table working on knives or training tools or whatever that is. Because

(00:18:49):

That was part of it. So I made my own bob, if you will, in 93, which was literally a couple of pieces of two by fours with an arm out and I had a knife on the end of it and I'd put it on some kind of rubber band that was attached to the floor so I could spin the thing or hit it and spin it and this thing would come back with a knife. And because it's a two by four and it's not something soft, if you miss with a short blade, you're going to pay for it

(00:19:17):

Badly. And yeah, you're getting hit in the knuckles with a two by four. And so he saw that commitment on my end and begrudgingly or not was just like, okay, we kept going. And a lot of it too was the necessity of bringing in stuff from work and saying, "Hey, this and this and this. " And then watching him think about it and his ability to break down stuff I talked a little bit about before, but was so ahead of its time too and looking at people who talk about the reality-based stuff. And there's a lot of people out there that done amazing work, but man, he was doing this in the early '90s and his knowledge of it was much, much older, but that does allude to a much darker time. And even the attitude, the feeling of the place, the people that were in and out of there.

(00:20:18):

Now, if regular students would come by, we'd go in the backyard and we'd work on flow.

Gregory (00:20:25):

Oh, really?

Jason (00:20:25):

By

Gregory (00:20:25):

That time already?

Jason (00:20:26):

Sure. Yeah. Oh yeah.

Gregory (00:20:28):

Pendulum.

Jason (00:20:30):

Yep.

Gregory (00:20:30):

Okay.

Jason (00:20:32):

So it felt very private to me. It was like, if it's just me there, then we can kind of explore. But he was definitely conflicted. He was definitely, he didn't want negativity out in the world and that a lot of that stuff was really negative, but he also saw, hopefully I think that I was there honestly trying to figure this out for myself and the reasons behind it. And so I would say 90% of what we did was not stuff that he wanted outside as a finished product. I believe that the end of the third generation, and beginning with Kevin, I would say, is a pretty good earmark there for that, is what he wanted to put in the world. And even though we're sitting here and it's a blade-based art, it's based as a dueling art, which is a conscious decision between two people to do something.

(00:21:32):

And whether it's purely to see who's more athletic or whatever else, or if it is because of some ridiculous grudge match that's never going to happen, it was his highest expression of arc within that. And you could see it in the way that the mood, you walk into the place when you guys were there was very different, was very different.

(00:21:58):

And the last thing I'll say, just to give you an idea, we used to work, we would use cigarettes, that was part of training. We would use cigarettes.

Gregory (00:22:11):

How so?

Jason (00:22:13):

On distractions, on the draw, flicking things in people's faces. We had a bucket across the room, and you flick the cigarette, draw the knife. You don't see that in curriculums.That was some pretty ahead of it. And I think that's like people focus on Sonny and they see his speed and they see his accuracy and they see his angles. And how did he just do that? But what they don't see is the deception, the-

Gregory (00:22:46):

The pre-fight.

Jason (00:22:47):

He was a magician in a lot of ways. His slight of hand stuff-

Gregory (00:22:51):

Distraction.

Jason (00:22:52):

You don't have to be good like Sonny, you don't have to be fast, you don't have to be accurate, you don't have to be any of those things if you can deceive people. And his deception was way up here, but his athleticism was also up here. So I still, regardless of whoever watches or people's ideas on traditional versus other type of arts, you just don't have any idea what it is to be in front of somebody like that and what they can do. It does seem otherworldly because of that slight of hand stuff. There's some famous YouTube guy who's really funny out there. He's a martial art commentator, but he's very sarcastic, but very well meaning. And he said, "Weird works. If you don't know what it is, you're going to fall for it every time." And Sonny had 10,000 of those things just lined up. So anyway, that's...

Gregory (00:23:54):

No, no, I can definitely testify to that and some other things you were mentioning. I'm curious, because you went there for specific things and he showed you things that you needed and would be open to explore, but how much of that was second gen, for lack of better word, curriculum, and how much of it was it just your custom thing? Because again, if Sonny was a tailor, he was a custom suit maker kind of thing. Sure, sure, sure. And it sounds like he for sure was more bespoke for you, but then for the people in the back, how much of that was becoming more of a crystallized second generation material? And how much was that with spillover for you?

Jason (00:24:41):

I feel like when we had other people show up, we would go to a much more traditional, if you will, setting where we'd go into the backyard. And yeah, we did a lot of pendulum. I know we did first, second, I want to say we did third, I could be wrong flow, but we did a ton of flow. We did a ton of Largo. I see. I love the bog side because it was like an axe handle. Yeah, me too. Made sense. Me too. And-

Renato (00:25:15):

You would.

Jason (00:25:18):

Yeah. But the stuff that clicked with me is the stuff that made sense.

Gregory (00:25:24):

Gotcha, of course.

Jason (00:25:25):

And that to me was like, that makes sense.

Gregory (00:25:28):

Yeah, definitely.

Jason (00:25:29):

And that in short knives, I never bothered with balisongs because I just didn't care because they were illegal and so I'm not going to carry something that insult to injury. And he showed me some stuff, but never with me the intent of learning stuff. And I was like, oh, I'm never going to figure that out. Cool. Moving on to something that is something I can grasp and make sense for me. But yeah, we would have, like I said, the infrequent or frequent for short bursts of regular student stuff, and then that's what we would do. I wouldn't come in with other people in there and be like, "Hey, man, I want to do ... " There was never any of that.

Gregory (00:26:15):

I see.

Jason (00:26:15):

So there was definitely curriculum. There was definitely flow-based training

(00:26:22):

And the randomness. One of the first things he did with me with sticks was he was like, "Hey, you're going to be blocking random strikes with sticks today." And I had never done ... And I gave him a look and he was like, "What do you think? " And I was like, "Okay, sure." And he had a way he figured it out. I can't tell you in a thousand years how we did it, but it was basic sinawali breaking from that pattern and at least the one through five. And yeah, by the end of the time it was like, "Okay, I'm hitting random blocking in your first day."

Gregory (00:27:00):

That's

Jason (00:27:00):

Awesome.That's pretty cool. And that's only because of him and the way that he could do stuff. So there was. We did a lot of traditional stuff and I'd get older guys come in, so then I'd see some of the older curriculum and not that I understood it, but you just try to survive.

Gregory (00:27:19):

Sure. So they didn't show you? You were just kind of the uke for if they went over it?

Jason (00:27:24):

Oh no, you had to do it. They're going to do it and then you try to do it and then back until you figure it out and then we would do what I would consider an unrealistic weapon, but at full force training with machetes on certain days where it's like there was no aluminum. We didn't use safety trainers. We just used dull machetes, which are like very, very thin baseball bats.

Gregory (00:27:53):

It still hurts.

Jason (00:27:54):

If you get hit, you're in trouble and- You

Gregory (00:27:56):

Still get cut. Yeah.

Jason (00:27:57):

Oh yeah, and broken bones. And so there was some trial by fire stuff and everybody had, from what I think is everybody had their cold showers, you're calling it. But there were times where I want you to push this as far as you can because I still want to see with all that fear, if I can still do what I'm supposed to do. And I missed a few times and was lucky he was who he was because we were swinging hard enough that these things were, they're sticking together. Machetes are not great tempered things. They're rolled, flat sheet steel.

(00:28:43):

And so these things, we got to the point where sometimes we're having to pull them apart, so you get hit with that, you're done. But it's putting that fear into you because it should be. You should be afraid because you're not sitting there in a bunch of pads and working on something, which is great for stuff, but it's like there's no room for error and my only safety is him because if I miss, which I have, because he's, like I said, slide a hand and I think he's there, so I'm going that way. And then you fall for bait and you go for that thing. But anyway, I'm getting off. But we did have regular stuff, but we did also very much have the connection of I need this for work. And so he would work with me on that. But also too, I think part of that and part of him being okay with doing some of that was also he saw how I was learning through the craft and the making parts of stuff and would see my commitment there too.

(00:29:55):

And I never got good at that stuff. I got good enough to make it a job later, but not like Like I don't consider myself a craftsman. I can prototype stuff. But he saw my commitment there too. And if you have a well-designed knife, you can tell a lot about somebody by how they design something.

(00:30:17):

You can tell a lot.

Gregory (00:30:18):

For sure.

Jason (00:30:19):

And so that was, I think part in his mind, that was part of my curriculum too, was he was seeing what I was doing with that.

Gregory (00:30:28):

I love that. Yeah.

Jason (00:30:28):

Yeah, it was very cool. Anyway, also-

Gregory (00:30:30):

Yeah, that's so awesome. No, no, that was great. I mean, being third gen and I guess the youngest of the whole crew, it's interesting to investigate and look back because one, it's just like, I want to just know all of it as far as material and how he came up with it and the meaning and the journey he took to get there. But two, just to know him and to know his mindset and his whole approach behind it. And so it's great to hear all these stories and your firsthand accounts to it. I do want to respond to two things you brought up. The first thing of being deception and him being a magician and definitely saw that in at least the third gen material. He would do stuff, funny stuff, just silly stuff while we're flowing. We would flow and then instead of like giving a feed or a strike, he would just take his hand out to shake your hand, that type of shit.

(00:31:26):

And you're just like so confused as to like, "What do you want me to do? " And then you're just like, he was like, "Yeah, you did good. You did good." You just silly stuff like that. Or he would look outside in the patio and see if someone's at the door and then you would be like, "Who's there?" And then he would do the thing. And it's just that idea of deception, but also distraction and things that magicians do is just basically distractions.

Renato (00:31:53):

Just to add to that, Greg, I think you guys were part of this whole thing. It might have started with Jason, but you guys were always messing with each other that if you dropped a knife or a stick, you would pick it up. And so the other guys will hit you to tell you that you better pay attention to everything else. Now that was prolific. You guys did that a lot back. I think that might have happened with Jason already because you were always aware of stuff.

Jason (00:32:24):

So one very specific thing is a lot of what we did was almost nose to nose.

Renato (00:32:31):

Nose to nose,

Jason (00:32:32):

Right? And starting here. Oh, interesting. And so you're reading everything by looking ... You're not staring right at the person, you're kind of staring around the person and then waiting for movement kind of thing. So yeah, if you're doing that and you're talking to somebody you're unsure about

(00:32:52):

And something falls on your foot, you look down and you're done. He had all kinds of stuff along those lines. He'd be able to flick pennies off the ... What's the word? For the thing you keep the food in, the refrigerator, that thing, because he'd be standing face to face and the refrigerator's off to the side and we'd be looking at each other and you hear this like ping. But it would be from there. I'd be like, "Don't move." But a little crap like that, that stuff is 80%. If you're in that part of the world, that's 80% of winning. It's that initial..

Gregory (00:33:43):

Yeah.

Jason (00:33:44):

So anyway, but yeah, like I said, it was from here to here. So yeah, there was all those kinds of things trying to get you off topic and trying to get you looking around or trying to get you ... What was that?

Gregory (00:33:54):

Yeah.

Renato (00:33:55):

I think that was in everything that he did because let's say Sonny and I would go into a restaurant and we would just go sit down and he would ask, "What did you see without looking, without turning and confirming what you saw? Did you see the guy there? Did you see he was left-handed or eating right-handed?" I mean, little conversations like that. "What about the girl? What did you see? "I mean, so just getting you to where you can go always be looking and just to train you to start looking like that, not to be unaware of anything else. So what did you see? What did you notice? Did you see how many people were in the back of you now or in the table? Stuff like that. You just walk in and you sit down, you order blah, blah, and then did you notice all these things? Did you notice an exit door? That kind of stuff. I think that was the beginning of, and just being aware. And by the time it got to you, it became playful. It became playful to where you guys," Oh, I got you, blah, blah, blah.

(00:35:05):

"And you play stop playing.

Gregory (00:35:06):

Yeah.

Renato (00:35:07):

So you guys

(00:35:09):

He was just in heaven with you guys at the third gen.

Gregory (00:35:13):

I'm happy that he was able to have fun and I'm happy to be a part of it. And I'm happy to hear that, that he was in a happier place with third gen. And I'm happy to just be a part of it. I think what we're all kind of describing is what modern people, especially in tactics, talk about of just being aware, situational awareness, but also just observing your surroundings and then orienting yourself to the surroundings, which is called OODA Loop, I think what people would refer to that. But Sonny was doing it before I even heard of it, it sounds like. And the other things too is just like, sometimes he would just stand like this and I forget what conversations we were having. It's like, when people were like that, you can just kind of be like, " Talk like this, "because your hands are up and prepared and perhaps closer to a tool by doing this.

(00:36:15):

And so a lot of it was really like, how do you read the situation before it actually happens and unfolding? And I know at least in science kind of skills acquisition science, there's a thing just that they refer to as read, plan, and do, which again kind of tracks with OODA loop is just reading and this whole idea of seeing. And I remember him saying like, " I'm teaching you how to see. "And a lot of it with flow-based stuff was that. But then even before engagement, it sounds like I'm teaching how to read and see just by Renato's example. The other thing I wanted to bring up too was the whole 80 / 20 ... 80 / 20, is that math? Okay. The 80 / 20. Yeah, that idea of like, " I'll take you 80% of the way.

(00:37:02):

"I don't know if it was because I was young at the time or this was the kind of where he was at with the material, but I do remember feeling like, " Okay, we're learning a lot of this root movement stuff. "And when he would show us, this is what it looks like in different expressions. And then that's when he would just run off a series of techniques and me and Jay would just be like, " Oh, that's cool, that's cool. "Oh, it was just mind blowing of all variations you can do from this one root movement that he showed us. And I think that speaks to the 80 / 20 thing, but also just internally feeling like, " Okay, I know this thing, but then when I have fights or encounters in the street, how does it apply? "I remember thinking to this to myself, thinking like, " How do I connect all of this and how is this fighting?

(00:37:53):

"And it wasn't until I was older that I have to start teaching this stuff, that I have to make sense of it and really understanding like, " Oh, okay, this is the work that he showed us, but the rest of it you do have to do. Otherwise, you won't arrive to these points of your own expression that is honest. And that's why I say VSCK is kind of the long way in a sense because he'll give you the root movements to arrive your own techniques to these certain problems and you come up with your own solutions. And so I do appreciate it, but I wish someone told me that ahead of time so I can expedite my learning and I can ask the right questions because I didn't know ... I have so many questions still to ask him and I just wish he was Here so

(00:38:37):

I could ask him. So that's what comes up for me for that and I could certainly testify to that. But it sounds like pendulum and flow started coming in and all of these experiences in all of our generations. And so I'm curious as to like where this idea of pendulum came from and this idea of flow and is flow just one side of a coin to like say, for instance, static or not flow? Yeah, because right now if you ask someone, what would you say or how would you describe VSCK? You would easily say flow based on what's out there right now anyway, pendulum and sword based stuff and Sonny's elusiveness and just trying to understand how we can help paint the picture of this evolution of how he got to third gen from first gen. Do you guys have any ideas as to where pendulum came from?

Jason (00:39:39):

Yeah.

Gregory (00:39:42):

I know you mentioned it before, but yeah.

Jason (00:39:43):

Yeah. Did we talk ... I think maybe talking about it offline, but for sure it came from dance. Ren, what'd you say that was ... Yeah,

Renato (00:39:54):

No, I think one of the-

Jason (00:39:55):

Was not ballroom, but was ...

Renato (00:39:58):

There was Cha Cha. There was a lot of stuff.

Gregory (00:40:01):

It was like social dance.

Renato (00:40:03):

Not ballroom, because that's for ... I was going to say something funny, but I'm not going to say it. They had a lot of name for it, like touch dancing. There was

Gregory (00:40:14):

Partner

Renato (00:40:14):

Dancing, basically. Yeah, it's

Gregory (00:40:15):

Partner dance. It's social dance.

Renato (00:40:17):

He goes to the West Coast, but I had some other funny thing to say, but ... Yeah, so partner dancing was part of that conversation piece of the flow, the back and forth. So he was excellent in ... Steve will tell you that in Europe, he had lines of women waiting to dance with him.

Jason (00:40:36):

Crazy.

Gregory (00:40:36):

That's wild.

Renato (00:40:37):

Right? It is, right? Because once you dance, and people that did not know how to dance, he would make him look good. This is why the attraction to, "Hey, I look good, I don't know how to move," but he would just guide people, women specifically. And that's the prowess of being able to teach flow, right? You lead him, you get him there, and this is all the hata person, which is the fainting portion of his art, right? But yeah, absolutely the dance, because he was that in the 70s already. He was already- He

Gregory (00:41:22):

Was a champion dancer, right?

Renato (00:41:24):

Well, I don't know about a champion dancer, but he did a lot of it. The clubs and the touch dancing was huge. I forgot what they're called. There's a name for it in the 70s with the lights.

Gregory (00:41:39):

Disco?

Jason (00:41:42):

Come on, man.

Renato (00:41:43):

I didn't want to say it.

Gregory (00:41:44):

This is your time, right?

Renato (00:41:46):

I did not want to say it because I would have dated my ass.

Gregory (00:41:49):

That's hilarious. I find it interesting.

Renato (00:41:54):

Yeah.

Gregory (00:41:55):

What's that?

Renato (00:41:55):

He was already partnered dancing by then. So a lot of this stuff was movement. Yes, he had a curriculum, but he also had this passion. He already had this other stuff going on. So both his passion came into play, and that's how he thought most of the art. That's when he started transitioning of the footwork and the ... He already had the footwork going because of that. In fact, his lesson plans had Fred Astaire looking thingies.

Jason (00:42:27):

Yeah, I remember this. Yeah.

Renato (00:42:29):

Remember that? Yeah. So put your right foot here, left foot there, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You pandol here, you strike number two there. And that's how he based his curriculum from the Fred Astaire looking lesson plans, right? So he was already there and he just needed a medium to put it on paper so we can show it. Now, going to that, the people that were having a hard time with that, he would ask them to go learn how to dance or partner dance specifically. And most of them were lighter color, not a lot of pigmentation.

Gregory (00:43:11):

That's on brand, that's on the tracks, the tracks.

Jason (00:43:14):

I'll have you know. And this early on, and I didn't understand, I didn't understand ... I had been there for a little bit. Yeah. And he'd been there off and on. I knew him a little bit, but not real well. And Sonny and I were finishing up and sitting watching, and when we finished, and again, I'm pretty new, I don't know everybody real well, and says, "Hey, are you a dancer?" And I thought he was being insulting.

Gregory (00:43:57):

So you thought was trying to-

Jason (00:43:59):

I mean, in my world, that's not-

Gregory (00:44:01):

Yeah, you don't associate dance with martial arts and fighting.

(00:44:05):

You're right. How dare you?

Jason (00:44:07):

Excuse me? This is going to get awkward real fast. And he was like, "No, you move real well." And then I was like, "Okay." But there was that moment of like, "Oh, okay, this is going to end probably before it starts."

Gregory (00:44:24):

Right. But it was a compliment.

Jason (00:44:26):

Yes, it was. But I had not learned that yet. Along the same lines of like, "Oh, you hit hard like a boxer." And I was like, "Oh, and I feel good about myself." He's like, "No, no, no, no." He's like, "It's too slow." I was like, "Oh."

Gregory (00:44:41):

Right. You don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing. I do find it interesting that a lot of great fighters do have dance experience. I mean, you look at Bruce Lee, he's like champion Cha Cha dancer, but outside of Sonny and Bruce Lee, you also have the boxer Lomachenko. His dad took him out of boxing and had him study traditional Ukrainian dance and then he came back and now he's really well known for his footwork and his evasiveness and being able to manage distance. And so I have my own theories around that because I mean, some of it's obvious, right? It's like dancing is partner dancing, and if you're dueling or fighting, you're having to manage distance and timing with another person, just the intentions are different, right? And so I think to be a good fighter, you should also be a good lead as in a dance lead because you're dictating where the dance goes.

(00:45:38):

You're controlling and you're controlling the other person into what to do. And so much of Sonny's flow and him flowing with us, he was manipulating all of it the whole time,

(00:45:52):

And not necessarily to look good for aesthetics per se now, because the intentions were different, but now he's leading us into traps, he's leading us into the parts of the room, running into the fan or into the couch at will. And so I think there is something to dance and the ability to lead someone and the correlation between being a good dance leader and a good fighter, if we're talking about sport perhaps, but also maybe a street fighter as well, because you're leading someone. As soon as you flick the cigarette into someone's face, you just took the first step and now you're leading them into a trap or you're just looking at another person the other way and kind of giving that diversion, you're leading that dance, so to speak. And so I think that's so brilliant, but that's something I also didn't really reflect on until I had to teach this thing.

Jason (00:46:42):

Did you guys ... I'm sorry, go on. Sorry.

Gregory (00:46:45):

No, no, no, no. Go ahead.

Jason (00:46:47):

Just along those lines, the one of the more important things that I found going out because I did have to go train with other people because it was mostly me and Sonny. And while that was wonderful, I still needed ... Because there was a certain level he would take things to in the house, you don't go beyond it, you don't go beyond it as far as level of aggression and all that kind of stuff. And he would encourage me to go outside and do that, but he's like, "Hey, let's not break everything in here." So I would, you'd have to go out. But the first time, and this is for both you guys, is one of the first times I went out and just did just regular old stick fighting, but he's got a gym, it's a big gymnasium and open space. And it felt like I had an oxygen tank on my back and I was getting the pure ... I could do anything because using machetes in this small little backyard, your footwork has to, your angulation, everything has to be, it just trains it into you that you get out and then all of a sudden you're like, "I can do anything right now.This is like so relaxed.This is so relaxed.

(00:48:00):

Even those guys trying to take my head off with a stick, I can go over there." I was just wondering how everybody else felt the first time they kind of stepped out and did that somewhere else and was just like, "Holy crap, this is so much easier."

Gregory (00:48:16):

Yeah.

Renato (00:48:18):

I do hear of people having the science stuff in their experience and feeling like they were able to do a lot more or the other person couldn't do what they needed to do. So the footwork actually really helped him a lot. I have that coming back saying, "I didn't know I could do all this stuff like what you're saying, Jason." So there's been conversations like that. So he does help him a lot with the footprint and the evasions and all this other stuff. So that's been, like I said, the dancing part of Sonny, his music also background, because he was ... Mantini will tell you as a child, he follows Sonny and his brothers in their band, so all that stuff. So the music, the dancing, we had dancing in the Philippines, in the Philippines as well, but the folk dancing. So all that coming to play, his Filipino-ness comes into the picture because of being able to come up with something out of nothing really, of trinkets.

(00:49:31):

So all that to me is all the Filipino stuff. I don't want to make that sort of a ... I just feel that's where all that stuff comes from, right?

Gregory (00:49:41):

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Renato (00:49:43):

It's ingenuity with stuff, making stuff from nothing, creating something, being problem solving there, his music, because he sets a tone for all the workouts. He puts the music.

Gregory (00:49:55):

For sure. He's like a DJ. Yeah.

Renato (00:49:57):

If it's flow, then he gives you Japanese Zen music or some kind of rhythmic

(00:50:04):

kind of stuff,

(00:50:06):

Upbeat stuff, so where you can get energized. So all these things were intentional,

(00:50:11):

Right? And so I thought it just came into play and you guys gave you the third gen, I don't want to take out the first gen and the second gen at all, but you guys gave him the playground to play and laugh and have fun and be at peace with all this stuff because he was older, he's settled into this piece in his head and now he can just play and let's try this today and all this. And then that's when you guys, I think, concentrated on your footwork as well. Look, you can tangled here folk from there with your legs and all this other stuff. It was just amazing to see you guys play and it was just fun. It was just fun watching him have fun.

Gregory (00:50:55):

Yeah. I was certainly happy to hear it. And yeah, all of his history and interests and art, I think, again, kind of informs the other thing, which kind of was a culmination of VSCK and just him in general. To answer your question, Jason, yes. When I would spar, flow, or learn from other people or actually get to cross sticks or blades with other people, it felt like a luxury to have so much space to move around because I was like, man, I could easily avoid people now if I'm not being confined in a space. It just felt way more manageable. I'm like, "I can just disengage so easy." But also I felt like my movements could be bigger and it was unlimited. So there is something about constrained training

(00:51:48):

And training in his living room for whether it was intentional or not. And so that's what I tell students now, I'm like, "Yo, we used to train in this little 10 by 10 area with grown men and there's sometimes four of us at one time." But yeah, with the topic of play and just the mood of things being different, I also think that play and experimentation should be a part of learning and fighting and skills acquisition as well. There has to be room to experiment, especially if you're trying to be random and you're trying to see all possibilities because the thing is what's Sonny too is what I'm getting is that when people zigged, he would zag. He would do things that were unexpected, unconventional, he would do things that were weird. And the only way to arrive to those places is sometimes to experiment and see and play.

(00:52:45):

And sometimes things, you could pull things off when you're playing and it's like, "Hey, wait a minute, there's a seed there. Let's see where this can go. " And a lot of times that's what third gen would do sometimes. He would see us do something and he'd be like, "That's a good one if you can pull it off." And then he would repeat what we would do. And a lot of times we didn't know what we did, but he saw it and he'd be like, "Wait, wait, wait, let's try that. " And so I think what high level Muay Thai people do, they don't spar hard. They play and it's just now becoming commonplace where it's like, "Yo, we should not spar hard. We should just as if we're playing." But that's what we've been doing this whole time, and that's how he would keep the mood kind of light.

(00:53:23):

And unless he felt like we were slacking and he'd be like, "Yo, make no mistake. This is what we're doing. I know we can joke and stuff."

Renato (00:53:31):

By the way, Greg, I want to compliment you with the way you're teaching.

Gregory (00:53:36):

I appreciate that.

Renato (00:53:37):

Sometimes that comes to me in a roundabout way because I'm not on the internet and all that stuff, I'm not on any of this stuff, but sometimes somebody would send me a clip and I just appreciate that because my position has always been that it's ... You can know a bunch of stuff, but if you can't transfer it, it's of no good. It's going to die with me. It's going to die with Jason.

(00:54:05):

So to be able to transfer that to a trusted somebody, it's a gift that you can do that you let art grow, right? But I just appreciate how you're teaching it because you give them a foundation, you give them something to work with, an area within confines of this, you play with this way, you experiment and you guys have fun doing it. I just love the way you're teaching. And there's a lot of people can teach that way, but I just appreciate you just because you give them the latitude to experiment and play and have fun. We didn't have all that stuff, but yeah, I just want to say that I'm loving what you're doing, Greg, and just-

Gregory (00:54:46):

I appreciate it. Thank you.

Renato (00:54:47):

Just keeping doing that. And like I said, I appreciate people that raised Sonny's name. Some people forget to say that, but I think a lot of stuff that we picked up was from Sonny. And yeah, we have bringing our own goulash kind of stuff and then it becomes bigger. And I'm glad you're doing it the way you're doing it, not the way Sonny necessarily did it. You have your own way to do it. And I'm watching you and I'm loving it.

Gregory (00:55:15):

Oh man, I appreciate it. That means a lot to me coming from you. It is how Sonny taught me and taught us. And so I'm kind of queuing off of Sonny. And so if it's anything that does come from Sonny, I am adding to it, at least with my lens, but not necessarily the material because I have to put my lens on it because that's how I understand it. And I wish he was still here just so I can confirm like, is this it? Is this-

Renato (00:55:45):

But the thing is, yeah, you can do all that stuff. You can question all that stuff. But the fact of the matter is this, Greg, that you're transferring what you are know, what you digested, what you crystallizing your stuff, and that's what you're transferring, and that's how the art grows.

(00:56:00):

That's how it grows. And you don't have to ... Yeah, of course you can have that conversation you had about Sunday, what is this, what's that? But we all have that, right? But you're doing it on your own terms and you're sharing it with the kind of passion that we all have, Sonny had, and that's all that you really need to have the art grow. And in your own vein, that's growing. So please, yeah, don't question that. Just have fun doing it and your student will teach you. For sure. I didn't want to teach. I didn't want to share Jason and I talked about that. I hate being on fricking camera, right? Yeah. I don't want to talk about anything, but the fact that I'm forced to share, so therefore I grow. Oh, that must be what Sonny meant.

(00:56:47):

That just comes in with time, maturity, and just sharing, right? The more you share, the more you pick up. And I think you're doing that. And Jason, he's the most ... How would I call Jason? The most unknown ... He's the most known, unknown person that I know of students, right? He's the most but not famous student Jason. I want him to come out and just speak because everybody knows Jason, but nobody knows Jason, right?

Gregory (00:57:21):

Right.

Renato (00:57:22):

And he's somewhere in the dark coming out. He's in the mist. He's in the midst.

Jason (00:57:30):

Yep. That was actually a big connection for me and Sonny too, was when we would go out in public and he was uncomfortable. He didn't like being in public. He didn't like being around people. And I knew what his brain was doing because my brain was doing the same thing. Oh, okay.

Gregory (00:57:49):

Which was

Jason (00:57:50):

What? Which was you were-

Gregory (00:57:54):

Processing?

Jason (00:57:56):

You were taking in all of the information that most people are not, and you're basically, you're assessing, you're giving threat levels to everything. And I watched, I was like, "Oh crap." And I felt protective of him,

(00:58:12):

Of all the weird things because I'm like, "Oh God, this guy, he doesn't want to be here either. He doesn't want to be around all these people. He doesn't want to be out in the public." And I think that was part of the connection and also made me feel a little more normal about that, about not ... But there was definitely ... And it was a while. It was, I don't know, probably a year or so, maybe shorter, but a while anyway, before we actually went out and did stuff or got food or went to traders, went to the gun store or Bonanza. And then seeing him out for the first time and like, "Holy crap, he's just as uncomfortable as I am." And that was a strong ... It was a very strong connection for me. It was like, "Oh wow, this guy that's so capable and just like, I don't need to be out there with all those people.

(00:59:15):

" And I was like, "Oh man."

Renato (00:59:17):

Yeah, Jason, but you carried more stuff with you than Sonny did though.

Jason (00:59:22):

I mean, so he says-

Gregory (00:59:26):

This is all speculation. We don't have any hard evidence on this.

Jason (00:59:28):

That is all hearsay, sir. That is all hearsay.

(00:59:32):

Yeah. Yeah, that's all hearsay.

Gregory (00:59:38):

That's hilarious. Yeah. I think it's healthy to have a certain level of caution and you should definitely be aware, but yeah, how much is too much? Because this is something I try to explain to my girl too. It's just like, "Yo, we can't do X, Y, and Z because this, this and that. " Or like, "We can't have the trunk open. We can't both be on our phones if we're walking around." You know, that type of thing. It's just like, I have to be aware of being a victim and let's not do that. And she's just like, "What? What? You're paranoid." I'm like, "Well, maybe a little bit, but I think a healthy dose of paranoia is good just to play it safe." I mean, when I walked down the street, at least when I was younger, and certainly now it's like when I walk down the street and I feel something is up or something is getting set up, I don't know what that is.

(01:00:27):

It's intuition, but that's enough foresight to be like, "Let's not go this way or let's go the other way." But I think maybe that's what you're speaking to with the, not paranoia, but the caution, you said the, what was it? The threat level.

(01:00:45):

We're all just assessing the threat level and how much we can manage at any given time.

Jason (01:00:51):

I think his, whatever you want to call it, his level of awareness of the world was, and whatever, this is coming from my perspective, so grain of salt. But by the time I got to Sunday, I had done a bunch of other stuff. None of those arts dealt with anything like that. I had whatever, done karate and kickboxing, judo and jiu-jitsu and whatever else. And I was like, whatever I could find I was doing at the time. And the Bay Area had a huge amount of that. So you could go everywhere and try everything. And I was working in clubs and dealing with fights and all that kind of stuff. But Sonny was the first one that I clicked with where, and I'm going to say this and I might regret, but coming from a more violent beginning, coming from a land and a place where poverty is way more prevalent than here on the average and how you have to carry yourself there, carry here.

(01:01:57):

And I really picked up on that from him and Ren's laughing at me.

Renato (01:02:07):

No, no, no. I'm just thinking where he came from. I went to Cebu down Bantan where he lived and I met Tini there. And thank you to you, Jason, because that's how we connected.

Jason (01:02:21):

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

Renato (01:02:23):

Yeah, that was in some places really rough. You have to pay attention. In fact, so much so that when I walked in and Tini and I went to ask for Sonny's where he used to live, we asked for a certain person and the answer was absolutely not. We don't know. What the heck are you talking about? That's the first thing Filipinos do over there. When you ask for somebody by name, it's like the mafia. You say no idea. Then you get the guy, "Hey, so- and-so was looking for you. Do you want to ... " You don't say he's over there. That's just common sense. That's how shit works over there. And Tini told me that, and that's who I was looking for, that Sonny's grandfather was a very famous eskrimador back there. And I couldn't-

Jason (01:03:15):

Right, that's right.

Renato (01:03:16):

You remember that, Jason? And that's who I was trying to go figure out, but Tini and I couldn't figure it out. In fact, I've never followed up on that. I saw him last time a couple years ago, but I never ... I would have wanted to know more about Sonny's grandfather apparently.

Gregory (01:03:33):

Me too.

Renato (01:03:34):

He was a well-known fighter back in the Philippines. Anyways, got sidetracked there. But anyways, that's where he came from.

Gregory (01:03:47):

That makes sense.

Renato (01:03:49):

And so you have to be aware of stuff.

Gregory (01:03:54):

Yeah. I always felt like this kind of pre-fight kind of things should be talked about, even though he didn't explicitly talk to us about it in class. It wasn't necessarily part of the curriculum, but every so often he would kind of bring certain things up like that. And then he would also mention, but this is more dark. This is more dark side. And I thought, dark side, what's that? I'm like, is this Star Wars? But every once in a while, he would talk about material or approaches to things and say, "This is what you would do, or this is how some people would do it. " Whether it was ambush and you have no chance of even knowing what's happening, or he would describe, this is one way you could do it, but this is more dark. And I'm curious, he didn't show much, if at all, in third gen dark side or anything dark per se, but it sounds like first and second may have had that element.

(01:04:55):

What is dark side and how would you describe it to people and why the aversion to it, obviously, other than hurting people and putting negative things out there, but do you think that also informed the material change?

Renato (01:05:10):

Jason?

Jason (01:05:11):

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I do. I do think it was part of his catalyst to build into something different than what he was doing. I do believe that there was, because like I said, there was that interview that he did put out a couple of years ago, a couple of years ago, right before he passed, or somebody put it out right after he passed, I think. Okay.

Gregory (01:05:37):

I haven't seen this.

Jason (01:05:39):

It's pretty short. It's like a couple of paragraphs long, but it wasn't talking of his new way of teaching and the flow based stuff and all that. So he did definitely have other reasons where he felt that he could get people to where he wanted quicker and he attributed his third generation teaching for that. So there was definitely that too. But I do believe that a lot of it, or not a lot of it, but at least some of it had to do with his previous experience with earlier ... I never got names, whatever, and it's not important, but where he had knew or had trained or been around people that had done some not pleasant things and it really affected him and he didn't want to be the person that's putting that into out there. He'd been through enough of that himself that he didn't want to put that stuff out.

(01:06:31):

And so he definitely had conflict when we were training privately a lot, meaning there's no one else around, where we'd get somewhere based off of working on stuff outside of the curriculum, and he'd stop and be like, "You got to give me a minute. I really don't want to go here with this right now." And which I'd always be like, "Yeah, that's fine, whatever." And because that just means I'm going to go home and I'm going to go drill stuff and then bring him back. It's like, "Was this it? " And they'd be like, "Okay, or whatever." Or he'd come back later and be like, "Okay, well, we can continue." But he was very cautious even after I'd been there for a while on some of that. But like I said, a lot of stuff was nose to nose

(01:07:29):

Because also too, and that was the benefit of having a small training area and using his kitchen, which was even smaller because one of the most prevalent places I worked that had the most chance of violence happened, there was an L-shaped hallway when you go in. And so it's an avato. It's all kinds of ways to get yourself screwed up. And so being in that compressed little area and having things happen that fast, if you get used to somebody like him trying to draw a knife and stopping it, then you deal with most people. And then you have whatever, music and nightclub and drunks and everything else going on, your success rate gets lower and lower. But if the speed that you're used to is him, then the whole world kind of gets turned down a little bit.

Gregory (01:08:24):

Right it gets more managable.

Jason (01:08:25):

Yeah. Yeah. But there's always something new under the sun though. Sure. There's always something new under the sun. And that's the thing. If you've never seen it before, you're not going to know what to do.

Gregory (01:08:39):

Yeah. Everything works once.

Jason (01:08:41):

Right. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Gregory (01:08:44):

Yeah. Just curious as to, well, does that mean first gen and second gen are inherently darker because so much of at least third gen and what people might identify as Sonny's art is some people say, "Oh, you guys do the dance thing, right? You guys go, you do the back and forth thing?" I'm like, "Yeah, it could look like a dance." And where I was younger, I'd be a little more defensive of that comment, but nowadays it's like we're obviously not seeing what's happening, but also your opinion doesn't matter to me, but there's two kind of questions there for me. It's just like, did avoiding the dark side basically render his art a little more approachable and more dance-like, and does it also take the edge off of it?

Jason (01:09:46):

I think it gave you more tools, but you had to find more stuff. You could find all of it, but you had to think about it first. It's like I said, if you were- 80 / 20? Yeah. If you were a machinist and you gave you the 80%, the 20's super easy. But if you're not a machinist, you got to learn how to be a machinist first, and then that 80% is going to be easy for you.

Gregory (01:10:10):

Are we attributing the 20% to being killer mentality?

Jason (01:10:15):

Sure. Or experience in that, or already having been through that kind of stuff and based with other stuff, because I came in being okay at a bunch of different things, not great, but pretty good at a bunch of different things and just having forced the experience part of it. But no, but I still had to work. And that was the only reason why he kept showing me that stuff is because he would be like, like I said, he'd show you, "Here's 80%." And then I'd go home and call up the guys that I train with like, "Let's do this until it's not stupid, until it's consistently working." Or if it was something specific, like build a dummy for it and work that, is this what you're talking about? I'd be like, "Yes, okay, let's move on. We'll do more." But anyway, Ren, you were going to say?

Renato (01:11:10):

I think the whole goal was to take off the edge of it.

(01:11:14):

That was what I believe in my heart that he wanted to do, take the edge off so that he could teach you more, show you more, so you guys can experience more in that environment, to take the edge off, take the aggression off, to be able to have a conversation so that you can do that. And then everything else, that 20% you're talking about is your personality. All that stuff was in there in the first gen, if you will, but I didn't have that in me, if you will, to want to ... That wasn't me. That wasn't my personality.

(01:11:52):

That wasn't my frequency. I knew it was there, but I didn't go after that, right? That wasn't my stuff. So the 20% becomes what Jason's talking about, which is you have to have the mindset, the mentality, the personality, the frequency, all that stuff to put it together for its stuff. But everything is there, but to get there, you have to learn the foundational stuff, the third gen stuff, the third flow stuff so that you can, but if it's in your personality, of course you can find all these other things, of course, but you also have to be able to pull the trigger. And this is the big part about that. Can you pull the trigger?

Gregory (01:12:40):

Can

Renato (01:12:41):

You do what you, in your mind? Most people can't.

(01:12:46):

Most people can't, and they fall apart at the side of a cut, their blood, their own blood, all that stuff can be in the picture. So all this dark side that you're talking about, you have to kind of take that out of the way so that you can learn the flow, the going in, getting out, all that stuff is absolutely all the things that you learned. All the other stuff is a byproduct of your experience, your mindset, your frequency, all that stuff. And can you? That's the question that Sonny asked Jason, "Can you do that? Can you go out there and do it? Let me see you do it. " And a lot of people won't be able to do that, right? You have to be in that place in your head. This is a life or death thing. And in that position, can you pull the trigger?

(01:13:45):

Can you pull the trigger? And that's the big question that you got to ask yourself. Do I live in that environment? To me, no, I don't, but Jason did. So he had to do that. That's part of his survival mechanism. I was in that light where I had to defend myself. Now, could I have? I have no idea. So you have to kind of ask yourself that 20% has to be all the variables that each of us have.

(01:14:17):

Yes, you can look good doing this thing. People don't understand that. The people that say those things, Greg, that people don't understand what you're doing. They don't have an inkling of what's going on. And so I don't mind, I didn't want that to be a preachy kind of stuff, but that 20% is really all where everything comes together for you. You put it in that crucible, right? You have all these tools, you have put it at crucible and then you have to ... And this is Sonny question. Can you pull the trigger? Can you take somebody out? Can you do that? And that's the part that you have to ask yourself, and that's all individual.

Gregory (01:15:02):

Right. Absolutely.

Renato (01:15:02):

People can talk. People can talk. I can do this. I can do all that stuff, but at the end of the day, if your life was on the line, that's a different story. And anyways, I didn't want to get dark that way, but that's part of Sonny's asking us about the dark side.

(01:15:24):

Can you do that? And if you can, why are you even here? But you can't teach some of that stuff. If you have, that's all you have in your head. You have to let that go for a little bit. Unless there was some reason for what Jason had, he's trying to survive coming home. That's something else. That's something else. And then there's the rest of us who are ... Some people, your students, right? You got to ask yourself, Greg, are those students, are they ... Can they? I mean, I look a couple of your students, some of these students

Gregory (01:16:05):

Are- They're nice people. Yeah.

Renato (01:16:06):

They're nice people. Some of the Berkeley people, Birkenstock wearing people.

Gregory (01:16:13):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. God bless them.

Renato (01:16:17):

That sounded bad.

Gregory (01:16:19):

No, no, no. It's probably true. I mean, I'm like that too.

Renato (01:16:24):

The intellectuals, right?

Gregory (01:16:26):

Sure.

Renato (01:16:27):

You can theorize all you want.

Gregory (01:16:29):

Absolutely.

Renato (01:16:30):

You can theorize all you want, right? And you can read that in the book, you can do this, you can look at it, you can even look good. Can you pull the trigger? And that's the dark side portion that people sometimes don't say. That's the 20% that Jason's talking about, right? That's going to turn it into some kind of flow and happy, learning something, or you can make it work for you to save your family and yourself. And that's where it splits. And Sonny was always worried about karma because that was his thing, this connection with ... Or knowing the dark side and karma, that's why he was conflicted with Jason.

Gregory (01:17:17):

He felt like it would come back to him.

Renato (01:17:19):

Well, it always comes back to you. Always comes back. This is his belief. And so this is the part that you have to ask yourself where you're at, right? But knowing the difference, right? Can you do this? Okay, you can do it. Done. Let's go play. You can put it in your own juice into that, right? And because you have a family to save, you have yourself to say, you want to come home in one piece. Yes, absolutely. Right? Sorry, that sounded preachy.

Gregory (01:17:54):

No, no. I thought that was well said. And I think it needed to be said. No, no, no. That's why we have our elders. We need our elders to keep us in line, and that's why I think it's good for you to ...

Renato (01:18:06):

Sorry about the Birkenstalk statement. I just didn't know.

Gregory (01:18:09):

You're going to get canceled now. Someone's going to complain and put it in the comments.

Renato (01:18:14):

I don't know where that came from.

Gregory (01:18:15):

You know what's funny now though is Birkenstocks are in fashion.

Renato (01:18:18):

No way!

Gregory (01:18:18):

Take that for what it is.

Jason (01:18:21):

I'm thinking going back out again already?

Gregory (01:18:23):

I have no idea. I'm old too. Well, I'm old now, relatively speaking. But that reminds me before we kind of close things out here, is that we did have a lot of fun. There was a lot of laughter and there was a lot of playfulness, but when we got a little too loose and lost track, Sonny would get upset and he'd turn the music down and he would get real stern with us.

Renato (01:18:52):

Stern and quiet and speak lower and whisper.

Gregory (01:18:57):

Yeah. Oh my God. I was like, "Yo, what just happened? The energy just changed." I don't know verbatim. I don't remember verbatim, but I just know he had to say this maybe less than a handful of times to us as a group. Basically the gist was like, "Make no mistake. We can have fun and we're laughing and we're playing here, but make no mistake. We're learning how to hurt people. " And so we should take it seriously. I know we're just having fun, but understand this is what we're doing. And again, it needed to be said. That's why we need our OGs. This is why we need to have guidance. People need guidance. People need elders to keep us in line. And so I thought that was good that he would do that because that would put us back in line and really focus on the material.

(01:19:49):

And sure enough, there would be points of elevation that we all felt like, "Yo, we got better." And you can tell he was real happy. He was like, "Okay, now we can do some work." I'm like, "Yeah, what? I thought we were doing work the whole time." He's like, "Now we can get started to some more stuff." So he was really trying to elevate us, but definitely was like, "Yo, stop messing around and this gets serious when it's serious." So I do appreciate that.

Jason (01:20:16):

So one thing I wanted just to put out there for folks is he was very clear in his mind the difference between dueling and self-defense and all of those things. And so there is and should be no illusion with any of us, any of his students or people that are watching, listening and seeing the stuff that he does. The flow-based things that he was putting out was specifically to become expert in dueling, and he knew the difference between that and the other things. It also allows people, again, if they follow that path to find and create what, but you have to put a lot of work in. You've got to do resistant hard training against uncooperative people over and over and over again to take that stuff and build it into a usable, repeatable thing on a defensive line. But he was very clear in that separation because he's been on both sides of the coin and he's been in the difference between a tournament or the between somebody trying to take you down on the street or whatever else.

(01:21:21):

He knew all that stuff. And so it would make me feel bad if people thought, oh, this guy's just a, he's teaching sword dancing or whatever, the most whatever sarcastic way you could look at that stuff because having played with all different kinds of people and some very, very dangerous people that are very good at different, very hard contact stuff, no one has that speed or that the vision, the ability to see, and just that blink of an eye of it's over before it starts.

(01:22:04):

So anyway, I just wanted to make that clear that he was very aware of what parts of where fit, what dueling is this and self-defense is this, and predatory attacks are this and whatever.

Gregory (01:22:17):

Yeah, could you maybe give for the audience what the definition of an idea of dueling versus everything else?

Jason (01:22:24):

Dueling is an agreement between two people. It's like you have two UFC fighters getting to the octagon. They know they're about to get into a fight. They're aware. They probably stretched and they're wearing gloves and mouthpieces and there's a set of rules that they have regardless. It was agreed upon. And all of those rules. Now, can you take 90% of what they're doing and use that as something for defense? Absolutely. But at the end of the day, they both know what's about to happen and they've agreed to it. Dueling is also, it's the same thing. That's a dual. Dueling is an agreement that two people are going to go do something under whatever set of rules that is, where defending yourself or a predatory attack is a completely different thing. There are no rules. It's completely asymmetrical. One person is aware, the other person is not.

(01:23:15):

And usually you're fighting from behind, you're behind the curve, and then you have to fight your way back to hopefully neutral and not get too hurt before you get to neutral. And so-

Gregory (01:23:27):

So basically ambush.

Jason (01:23:28):

Yeah. Yeah. And the stuff that he was fascinated with, this one club I worked on, it was like a rooftop garden over a really busy street with a bunch of nightclubs. And so you could see on Friday, Saturday night, there's tons of people just tear using all over the street. And you'd see interactions. And the nights that I was up on the roof watching, and you would watch everybody's ambush, predator bullshit, excuse me, but you'd see certain people, how guys, one guy would distract someanther guy so another guy could steal his wallet, even if there wasn't violence. Just the interactions, different groups of folks and how they would ... And he would be super into that stuff. He would be super into that .

Gregory (01:24:14):

Diversions, distractions.

Jason (01:24:15):

Yeah. Yeah. And so again, teaching you to see and looking for that. And I learned just watching hundreds of people in a night, different levels of inebriation and looking at how people are picking each other out as victims. You can see, oh, that dude's too drunk. He's bumping on the wall. And then you see heads turn and you see the heads turn and start going through the crowd. And then they see that wait until he gets to that alley or whatever else and then boom. Presentation and seeing how other people pick up other people, how they pick you out as all that kind of stuff. He was super into all that stuff. But anyway, wanted to make sure that people were aware of that, that he was not in an illusion. One of his favorite ... God, what was the movie? Was it Rob Roy?

Renato (01:25:12):

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Jason (01:25:14):

Am I right, Ren?

Renato (01:25:15):

Yeah.

(01:25:15):

Yeah, the movie.

Jason (01:25:17):

Yes. And there was a sword fight at the end. It was a duel between Rob Roy and this other guy. But apparently they trained really hard for it. And there was ... I can't remember. I'm hoping that that's the right name. But there was a lot of attacks evasion and just in and out effortless, no getting hit, in and out kind of stuff. And he was like, whoever did this choreography, he was really into how that was done. That was his baby. That was how he worked on stuff. And that's what he wanted to put out, was people being able to do that, which is a far cry from having a bunch of fake flowers that have sharpened stems on the end so you can throw them in somebody's face.

Gregory (01:26:07):

Right.

Jason (01:26:08):

Right?

Gregory (01:26:08):

Yeah.

Jason (01:26:09):

That's a very different, but just as expert in that. Take

Renato (01:26:14):

A look at that movie. I got to get going too.

Gregory (01:26:16):

I got to look at that. Okay. Well, I have final thoughts before we wrap here.

Renato (01:26:20):

Rob

Jason (01:26:21):

What? Oh, the pendulum was based off of dance. It was not based off of boxing. Want to put that out there. We had a bunch of people like, "Oh no, no, he took it from this, give credit." No, no, no. It was from dance.

Gregory (01:26:35):

You heard it here first, folks. We're setting the record straight.

(01:26:41):

But yeah, this is great. This is great. Well, thank you all for joining us. I think one quote from Sonny that really kind of wraps up what we just talked about today was that Sonny said that there's no art in dying. The art is in the living. And so with that, I think that's a good reminder for being intentful and purposeful in what we practice and being aware of ourselves and each other and just try to be good people. So thanks for joining us. Thanks everyone. And if you have any questions or comments, leave it in the comment section. And until then, we'll see you next week. All right. Awesome. See you later.

Jason (01:27:18):

Thank you folks.